Optimistic Obfuscation

Actually, there are some wierd apes, like Bonobos, the pretty much have sex with anything and everything, including same-sex.

My old roommate had 3 mice, and i swear to you that one of them was a homo. Anytime that he felt felt like he needed some action he would go at one of the other mice in particular, and rear mount that sucker. In one sense, it was hilarious, in another, i was disgusted. All in all though, the raped mouse eventually killed the other 2 mice. Who can blame him?

I do not believe in evolutionary theory; however, let us momentarily assume that evolution is true, and that homosexuality is in one's genes (that is to say, they are "born gay"). The whole point of evolution is reproduction and genetic advancement. If one is born as a homosexual, one can be resultingly considered inferior; they lack the proper procreative desires -- instead favoring mates with the same genitalia. The sort of sexual congress that these evolutionally flawed desires lead to is always (without exception) unsuited for reproduction. Homosexuals are then intrinsically defective according to the theory of evolution.

I don't believe in evolutionary theory either. It just seems to me that the same people that would argue the homosexuality is natural would argue for evolution as well. Your argument sounds pretty good to me. I don't have any trouble calling homosexuals inferior.

Often, those who argue for both evolution and homosexuality try to pawn it off as though homosexuality is some sort of "advanced form of humanity" that can only be truly appreciated by other "advanced" people. If we want to prove that we are also "advanced" we'd better be nice to the poor oppressed sodomites (because they've really had a rough go of it the past millenia, and besides -- they have an unerring sense of interior design). "Wait," one might ask, "I thought evolution was about survival of the fittest?" Indeed, it is. In truth, evolution and effeminacy cannot fit together unless the whole point of evolution is the destruction of a species.

Well, I prefer my nonsense in smaller doses.

There is one problem with all of these arguments.They are all true. However, we are assumuing that people today have a "truth grid." What I mean by truth grid is that they use logic and logic tells them that they cannot hold two entirely incompatible views in juxtapostion. That type of epistemology does not exist today. People today have no inherent difficulty keeping to diametrically opposing views in tension without seeing the need for them to be reconciled. Thank God that people don't do science like they do religion and politics.

Hey, Methodius. I was hoping you'd chime in. That's right. Sadly, logic is out the window insofar as the majority of people are concerned.

Hey. Sorry to jump in several days after the fact. I'm not worried about your logic (collectively), but about yer souls. Some of these comments contain language that is pretty abusive, to no good purpose. If your sense of the wrongness of homosexuality is based on Jesus, review what he said about talking to and about people. Pursue the logic, and leave out the cheap shots. If you want to imitate the Lord, learn what it means that the sick need a doctor, and not the healthy. End of lecture, but it's firmly meant.

I agree with you Lang.

Honestly, homosexuality "makes sense" to me, just like it "makes sense" to alot of people. It's not about logic, that's simply modernistic and not rooted in Scripture. What the Bible does tell us (and my dear Heidelberg Catechism) is that people everywhere, whether unsaved (and old man fighting "common" grace or whatever you want to call it) or saved (and old man fighting new man) is that there isn't some sound, firm foundation inside of us that we can build a logical, rational tower of right and wrong from.

But before I head down that line of thinking any further, I need to go back and explain my "makes sense to me" statement. I'm happily married. But dangit, if my relationships with my guy friends aren't insanely easier to handle. We're able to understand each other more quickly and without as much difficulty. So in that respect, from a simple interpersonal fashion, homosexuality makes sense to me. The physical side of things is a whole different story. But that's just to say, why is it so "out there" or "incomprehensible" for one guy to be more comfortable being intimate with another guy than with a woman? From a practical standpoint, it certaintly makes sense.

And now to tie it back into what I was saying earlier: if we're all just a buncha fallen people, homosexuality isn't out of the ordinary. It's just another expression of the sin in all of our hearts. In that sense, it's extremely natural.

Which is why, like I think Lang said, it's not helpful (or even missing the point) to even get into all the debates about this n' that, and what's logical or rational or "natural" or whatever. Unbelievers, just like we did and do even now, need Christ's forgiveness, grace, and love.

I'm not trying to make a statement about whether homosexuality is any different than any other sin or makes any less sense than any other sin. In the grand scheme of things no sin makes sense when viewed in light of the consequences and the alternatives. But at the same time every sin makes sense in our minds, or else we wouldn't commit them. The point that I was trying to make is that the majority of people that you run into would at least say that they try to be logical. It seems to me that those same people would say that homosexuality is natural and probably would say that they believe in evolution. It seems to me that these three things taken together, with nothing else weighing into the argument, don't make sense. That is all that I was trying to say. Of course that is not a very edifying discussion or whatever. You have to notice what category this post fell under. It is a Random Thought. I wasn't preaching a sermon or making a deep philosophical point. I was just letting you know the random thought that I had while I was mowing my lawn.

All that being said, I absolutely agree with both of you, Lang and Josiah. If we are to have an edifying conversation about the issue we must be careful about the words that we use and the tone in which we use them. Our love for those that are struggling with homosexuality must be no less than our love for anyone, because we are all sinners. In that regard homosexuality is no different than any other sin. On another hand though homosexuality is very different because those that live in that lifestyle are publically and purposely flaunting a sin that in many ways I don't understand. I don't know anyone that is struggling with homosexuality. (Or perhaps I don't know anyone that has admitted it to me). In that sense it is something that I don't understand and therefore I speak of it in ways that I don't speak of other sins. Perhaps more harshly than I should.

[That is a lot of stuff and some of it may not make sense. I was trying to get it done right before I leave from work so it is kind of rushed. Forgive me.]

When two gay, for example, men are together - both of them do not assume a male/male relationship. So homosexuality may "make sense" (which is logic by the way ?) if the two partners are both fulfilling the roles of male or female. This, however, is usually not the case. Usually, one is masculine and the other is effeminate, or in the case of women, one feminine and the other masculine. So fussing and fights and confusion usually still happens (ever been around a two gays fighting? been there) So women and gay men are still from Venus(?) and men and gay women are from Mars(?) Am I making any sense?

Sup??? I"m posting my 2 cents up in here real quick-like.
Ok to all those who say this is natural, let me ask you how can something be natural when it goes against the natural way your species body is designed? Think about it, the male n female specificaily have been designed to reproduce or have sexual relations with each other. The only time people are considered Gay or Lesbian is when they are attracted to the same -sex sexually, not if they are looking for a simple realtionship because that can be considered a friendship still. Same-sex sexual activities are nothing natural because of the way they have to be accomplished. We are designed for our opposite sex, how could it be natural if it goes against our very design?
Keep in mind i love people they crack me up n are usually a lot nicer than straights but this is still my view on it being natural. To me it's just another sin, not worse or better but just another one on the list.

Peace :D

there are apes called bonobos who have homosexual relations, along with whip-tailed lizards who are lesbians. also the black swans in australia basically have three-somes. the female lays the egg and leaves the 2 males to finish off. so yes there are gay animals out there.