Well, Led Zeppelin makes countless allusions to Christian ideas. All that means is that he recognizes the power of the imagery.

On retrospect, it's really stepping out on a limb for me to judge his Christianity one way or the other. I'll back off from that claim. But the original discussion is regarding the legitimacy of using U2's music in a worship service, and that goes to the direction of the music, not the faith of the man. As ambiguous as it is, I don't see how it could be included.

One more point- the Psalms are indeed full of despair, but they always end with very clear statements of trust in God. "But I will remember Jehovah". I just didn't see that in the songs I quoted.

there's a whole load of really up-front christ-referencing and faith-affirming stuff in other u2 tunes though.

[the obvious one is '40' if you're talking about using u2 in church...]

how about 'rejoice' or 'october' or 'drowning man' or 'gloria' or 'pride [in the name of love]' or 'sunday bloody sunday' or 'one' or 'two hearts', or, or...

here's the deal. cherry-pick your quotes and you can make a case for anything being ambiguous or anti-christian. you may not have seen an 'i will remember jehovah' sentiment in the songs that you chose to quote matt but it's there in others...

maybe the suitability of u2 in a church service context kind of depends on how the worship is structured. if you're going to say, "ok, none of our usual wesley hymnals today folks - instead i'm sticking the joshua tree on the pa and we're all going to sing along to 'where the streets have no name' ", well i'd hope that we'd all agree that's not wise...!
but if you're talking about using '40' or 'drowning man' [as we have done] as background music for stations in a cafe-church setting as part of a non-linear service about jonah, i don't see the problem...
so maybe it's more about context than whether bono is a [good] christian or not...?

Well, there are a couple of songs there with semi-unambiguous statements, but I notice they all seem to be from the earlier work. Even so, they're as much about politics as anything. I have no idea how "In the Name of Love" can be considered a strong statement of Christianity, since MLK is put on the same level (arguably, higher) than Jesus Christ. '40' or 'Drowning man' is probably your strongest point. But again, from early in the work. The later work seems so anti-God, I don't know how you can get around it. "Peace on Earth" and "The First Time", especially.

These songs express, not just antipathy about organized religion, but active and deep skepticism about God's ability or desire to effect change in the world, and all in their most recent work, and all directly addressing the topic of religion or devotion to God. If anything, what you've demonstrated is that they used to be a good deal more Christian than they are now.

But really, maybe that doesn't matter to you? Maybe your concern is simply the usability of certain songs in a certain context, and what other songs say is not your worry? Maybe you'd say, yeah, the later work seems pretty anti-God, but that's OK because I'm just using this earlier song? What I'm saying is, the songs that most directly address the topic, especially in their most recent work, seem to be very anti-God.

But on an even broader topic, commercially produced music coming over a stereo is not something I enjoy in a worship environment at all. It wouldn't matter if it were Jars of Clay or Switchfoot or something very definitely intended to be "Christian". It seems very sterile and manipulated. I'd take badly played hymns sung badly by a small congregation any day over recorded, prepackaged worship. People participating in the worship is much more important to me than people simply having the desired emotional response.

firstly matt, i have to admit that after the joshua tree album i kind of lost track of u2, ['rattle & hum' - oh dear... sorry john!] so i'm bound to be quoting the earlier stuff... [and the album 'october' was so crucial in my early christian life, maybe there's more faith-food in it for me than a non-fan without that connection to the music...]

i guess that i'd want to say that you can't judge a pop/rock lyric in the same way as you might justifiably assess a standard worship tune - 'pride [in the nameof love]' for example is not written as a doctrinal statement so it's unfair to suggest that by it's setting mlk over christ. i'd want to argue that it's talking about mlk's motivations and stuff. it's not trying to appeal to listeners on the level of a rational theological argument or statement, but something more emotional and maybe personal than that. it juxtaposes christ's betrayal and mlk's assassination, it doesn't set out to compare them or to rate them against each other. so as a pop song, it's unfair to criticise it for not doing or saying something that it never set out to do.

now i can see that if you expect your worship music to be also be a strong and explicit expression of a doctrinal position, then i can see why you would have a problem with u2 in church, and - from that position - i can see why you'd want to judge the songs from that standpoint. when we have used u2 [and other stuff including radiohead, martin grech, jon hopkins, cocteau twins, sparklehorse, gavin bryars, longview...] it's not as the focal point, more a background thing for mood and to provoke some thought for those who want to listen and reflect. so whilst it's carefully chosen, it's not burdened with the need to carry any doctrinal weight. i think that i've explained that very badly, but i'm hoping you'll get the gist! if not ask me to clarify, and i'll try! ;-)

so in the context of how we've used music recently, i don't think the content of u2's more recent stuff is relevant really, if the song chosen works in the context that it's being used...

...and also, i quite like the fact that bono mixes the political [small 'p'] and the spiritual... i think that's a healthy mix [and one that a lot of commercially-produced 'christian' music seems to avoid...]

i'm with you on the whole christian music thing though. we rarely use specifically 'christian music ' in our alt worship thing [partly because as a group, i just don't think we own much] and interaction and participation are key at our events, although probably for that very reason we haven't yet done the communal singing thing. we've recently begun to use a bit of liturgy [though again, that tends to be less about asserting a doctrine, and more about exploring our chosen bible story and the eucharist in particular...]

To get the full perspective on U2's music you have to see them live. For instance, if you have seen the Elevation concert (available on DVD) you'll see how they string idea's together. "Wake up Dead man" a song about despair and doubt leads directly into "Walk On", a song about hope and faith and leaving earthly things behind. In the live shows they end with "Walk On", singing "Unto the Almighty, Thank you. Unto the Almighty, Thank you. Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah" The shows end with a chorus of Hallelujah's sung not only by the band but by the entire audience, most of whom are probably not Christians, it's a powerful experience.

One more point- the Psalms are indeed full of despair, but they always end with very clear statements of trust in God.
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No, they do not. They do not always end with statements of trust. Sometimes they end with the most uncomfortable lack of resolution - that is the true nature of lament.

It has always been the nature of those close to God to be compelled to shake their first and beat their chest at God. The Old Testament is full of such deep honesty before God.

I won't try and convince you Bono writes lyrics of faith although I believe that he does - not because of any specifity of mentioning of any god or explicit nature of his god talk but because of the themes and ethics present. He is more an example of following Jesus than most I know who claim to be Christians.

Being anti organize religion or the Christianity does not make one anti Christ or anti God. There wouuld have been no Reformation or counter Reformation without an attitude of anti-establishment present. I found it suspect whenever any religious establishment begins to tout itself as singular truth or bulletproof - it shows a lack of honest about the fallbility of human insitutions.

MC

Read "Walk On: The Spiritual Journey of U2."

Just because the boys aren't fundamentalists doesn't mean they aren't Christians.