parresia

I am sure that in the next decade or two, as western Christianity continues to capitualte to the culture as well as losing anything that even smacks of "little O" orthodox, the Orthodox Church will see a steady stream of converts who are abandoning the sinking ship...

One can only hope that many will find the Church sooner rather than later...many of these that you site may pave the way...

I continue to be amazed at how many of my non-Orthodox Chrisitian friends and family have never even heard of the Orthodox Church, let alone already dismissed it....

"For the union of all, let us pray to the Lord."

Karl,

Great points. You point out a very interesting fact: even though the Orthodox Church is gaining Protestant converts rather rapidly, there are still so many in America who haven't the slightest knowledge of what Orthodoxy is. Blame for this falls on us Orthodox as well as on Western Culture. It falls on us for obvious reasons, and it falls on Western Culture for pre-empting a consideration of Orthodoxy as a valid Christian choice.

Indeed Karl, "for the union of all, let us pray..."

Amen.

You seem to put a lot of zeal into the rumors or fact that a lot of scholars are turning to orthodoxy,or that they are looking at the traditions of men, I might add. and there looking more into Icons. Is this supposed to sway me? I think not! the holy spirit will lead you into all truth. I think Christ had a lot of problems with the traditions of men and the scholars of his day.who could not see the forest for the trees.

Jeff:

Disclaimer: I am a Protestant who would like to be Orthodox.

Now, clearly you have a position you are loathe to relinquish. Fair enough. But it seems to me, that Jeremy was doing little else than noting some anecdotal trends and conjecturing in more general ways. But I sure didn't get from his blog that he had anything more nefarious in mind.

That Jeremy is Orthodox, and that he would like to see these "trends" turn into a TREND, is pretty clear from the comments.

But it still isn't clear to me that he was trying to "sway" anyone to follow the traditions of men, or turn them from the Holy Spirit's leading.

Rather, it seems like you came with some axe-grinding to do. Again, fair enough.

Now, if you'd like to actually discuss these issues, I'm sure you'd find Jeremy (and most definitely me, one who is leaving one camp to enter another) a willing conversationalist.

Hey hey! Tradition...right up my alley!

Traditions of men?

Men like the Apostles, you mean?

Why do you assume that the Orthodox Traditions are the "traditions of men" and not the Traditions that St. Paul exhorts us to keep - whether delivered by word or epistle? How do you know that your own protestant hermenuetic is not a "tradition of men"?

Yes, the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth...but was this promise delivered to YOU personally? Or to the Church? For our part, Holy Tradition IS the Holy Spirit leading us - meaning the Church - into ALL truth.

Christ also befriended scholars (St. Joesph or Arimethea, St. Nicodemus) and might I ask EXACTLY which "traditions of men" that Jesus had problems with?

Happy to dialogue Jeff.
peace
james

So James are you saying that the orthodox belief is that that the holy spirit deals with the church and not individuals. as in speaking to the leaders of your church. I know you have no pope. but you have something close. A man who has the final say, in matters?
Jeff

Hi Jeff...

No man wearing a funny hat (be it pointy or round) has the final say in matters. Neither does any "joe" or "jane" individual with Bible in hand.

Yes, the Church is the "pillar and ground of truth." Despite all of our best efforts (wearing funny hats or not), the Church always triumphs the cause of truth.

Please note though, Jeff, this does not preclude the Holy Spirit from dealing with individuals.

peace
james

Disclaimer: I am a Protestant who respects Orthodoxy but does not want to become Orthodox.

It's easy to have a respect for Orthodoxy, as I'm sure J.P. Moreland and Dallas Willard do, and (I feel) not be about to join it or "convert". I'm in the same place. I've been to at least 40 Orthodox services, 7 chrismations, 3 baptisms and 2 weddings and spent a summer reading the Philokalia. I've argued Orthodoxy's strengths against people who misunderstood it. I've heard F. Matthewes-Greene's lectures and read at least three of her books. Her book on the abortion issue is invaluable, and my wife and I have given away 7 copies of The Illumined Heart in the last six months.

One thing I've appreciated about Orthodox theology is a sense (probably begging some to correct it) that its focus is on depth and not detail, and that at the same time is very practical. That there are spaces and places for spiritual reflection where no explicit doctrine has been outlined in a systematic manner. I've learned a new position of the heart towards God from Orthodoxy, and found value in thinking in terms of the 'nouetic' (sp?) self. It's hard for me to specifically name things without specific context, but I feel greatly blessed by my relationship with the Orthodox Church and my friends and family who are members of it.

But a few things keep me away. Foremost is the divide that the Orthodox see between themselves and the rest of what I feel is Christendom. The divide that leads them to refer to "conversions" from Protestant to Orthodox. The divide that prevents the sacrament being offered by any non-Orthodox priest from being "efficacious" or suggests that only the Orthodox truly understand prayer. The divide that prevents a broad feeling of brotherhood with others who would proclaim Christ Lord, strive, per the guidance of Scripture, to love God with all their hearts, souls, and mind, and their neighbor as themselves. Too many godly people from too many gardens in Christendom have shown me Christ in their lives, been Christ to me in several senses, for me to want to move to what is perceived by many Orthodox to be a higher spiritual ground. This preoccupation with making a little 'o' into a big 'O' is frustrating to me. I feel that a victory for a body of believers within Christendom is a victory for Christ, but many of my Orthodox friends don't think that way.

Another is the genuine awkwardness with which I've seen real converts (i.e. pagan -> Orthodox) being handled when it comes to education about the nature of Christ and the value of reading the Scripture. (Why go on about St. Simeon to someone who doesn't even know for sure who St. Peter was?) There always seems to be a rush to secondary texts that's disconcerting in the case of people who have no familiarity with the primary. Few people have enough with the primary to start with. I know I might rather spend a day reading St. Theophan the Recluse than Paul's letters to the Corinthians, and that, I think, is something I have to resist. First things first.

I heard something on NPR a month ago that was really striking. It was about the Anglican church in Singapore and Angola and how, while the American Anglican (and Episcopalean) churches had gone through a liberalizing, the Anglicans from those countries were sending missionaries to start new Anglican churches in America that had a truer moral and doctrinal compass than the local churches. The report also mentioned that these new church plants were thriving, and that people were leaving the older, established American Anglican churches and going to the newer ones that still had their purpose and mission, and the Gospel, intact. So while the newer churches were growing the older were shrinking. The commentator ended by saying that "Conservatives should be hesitant to begin crowing: the Angolan pastors often call for a forgiveness of third-world debt and for more money to be spent on the African AIDS epidemic." And what do you know, two days later both of those are mentioned as goals in a conservative president's State of the Union Address....

In any case, the Angolan Anglican mission churches are something I can get excited about, because it shows what Lewis once referred to as "the unscrupulousness of the Holy Spirit" or something like that. Men set up institutions and systematize. My feeling is that as long as they further the kingdom, that's great, but as soon as they begin to say "No" where He did not say "No," something is awry.

When the phrase "That all may be one" is used by the Orthodox as a rallying cry, it rankles, because of the reasons that I mentioned above. I feel like in some ways being Orthodox can remove one's broader identification with His Kingdom and His ongoing work. There's a subsequent loss of joy there, because the Holy Spirit broods broadly, and I can't accept the discounting of any, ah, bright wings.

So that's my soapbox. I love my Orthodox brothers, which is why I read this site regularly, but have been troubled by the retreat from the outer bailey to the keep. Ok. That's all.

Lord, son of David, have mercy on us! --two blind men near Jericho.

Hi David...

Well would could go round in circles for sometime about all of your criticisms of Orthodoxy, but one point in particularly struck me as being a red flag to me - espcecially since I have just endured (God forgive me for saying so) Holy Thursday and Friday services.

You note the seemingly lack of scripture being used in catechizing converts (forgive my use of the term...for those of us who make the leap we usually feel it fitting), and this suprises me to hear you say this...especially since you say you have been to so many Orthodox services. As I sit hear having heard so much scripture in the last two days that my head hurts, I have to wonder if you were paying attention in the services? Seriously, most of the sunday to sunday liturgy contains tons of scripture - most of the text itself (the readings not withstanding) are derived directly from Scripture. And then, on Feast days such as ALL of Lent....Lord have mercy on the catechumens and small children.

I'm pretty sure I have the last five or so chapters of all four gospels memorized (well, I reckon we'll get the last chapters beginning on sunday) I have heard them so much these past couple days!

As far as the division between "O"rthodox and "o"rthodox...well what can we say...in the end one doesn't believe what the other does and what one considers essential, the other does not. What one practices, the other rejects. The quest for the lowest common denominator is not an attractive option for the "O"rthodox because of the inherent connectedness of Her faith - 'twould be like pulling "Jenga" blocks out of a tower in our mind.

Plenty of Christian people outside of the Church though, you'll get no argument on that. Plenty of people who'll no doubt enter into paradise long before me, no argument there. And the only answer I've ever heard from the Church on the "efficaciousness" (wow, is that a word?) of other groups' sacraments is "We don't know." Of course, it's a no brainer if the group denies the sacraments, no?

Anyway, I've no interest in arguing you into the Church, David, but just wanted to let you know how I managed to "slip past" those things which keep you out of Orthodoxy.

We love our Protestant brothers too...and ferverently prayer that we may all one day be one.

peace
james

Mna..where did I learn to type...is it Pascha yet? Somebody wake me up when we get there?

Virtue never stands alone. It is bound to have neighbors.