parresia

There's more to life than Church history, you know....

Oh yes there sure is Sweetie; the Lord did say there would be Trial and Tribulation.

You know I'm just teasing sweetie. Love you! My time spent in church history, makes my time with you more special. Thanks for being so patient.

Ahh, but our very life and experience in Christ depends so much upon church history!

But I know what you mean, Kate. At least he's not obsessed with video games, though. Am I right or am I right? Yes? Hello? Anyone? :-)

By the way, I have a feeling that these words will sound oddly familiar at some point in my life:

"There's more to life than church history, you know, Wayne..."

"Who's it going to be, Wayne, me or Schaff?"

Jer, I think we must be evil twins or something. Just a hunch...

Wayne Oh,

I can't speak to the "evil" part, but as for being twins of a sort, I'd have to agree-- except that I've got the brains; you've got the looks...

:-) Or was it, I have the brains and the looks? lol

Either which way, wanna make lots of money?

No offense, Jer, but I'm going to kill you.... :-)

Jeremy, I only posted that sentence because I expected your reply to be, "but not much more." And what's more, I would have been HAPPY with that reply...And even more than that... I would have agreed with you! :)
But alas, you're so obsessed with Church history that you've completely forgotten the lyrics of Morrissey. Now I'm TRULY exasperated... (just kidding.)
And Wayne, I AM so glad that Jeremy isn't obsessed with video games or MTV and that he has a good friend who isn't obsessed with those things either. Now you just have to continue to keep him in check... I'm depending on you!
(You can email me regarding hourly wages and benefits...)

P.S. Marco failed me horribly when he gave Jeremy a Star Wars computer game. So it's really all on you now, Wayne-O.

Jeremy, I don't think anyone except radical non-sacramental Protestants denies the Real Presence. The question is *how* is Christ present. Even noted Orthodox scholar J. Pelikan concludes that the Fathers were not clear on this, though obviously Justin Martyr comes close.

The Calvinist position is that any doctrine of the Real Presence that teaches a physical presence of Christ violates the Definition of Chalcedon (that the fully human and divine natures exist in one person and hypostasis without confusion or without mixture) by attributing to Christ's humanity that which is proper only to His divinity: ubiquity or omnipresence. Calvin's and the Westminster Confession's doctrine of Real Presence is completely consistent with the Fathers.

Martin

Even Justin Martyr is hardly a developed theory. Like some of the other Fathers, he speaks of "transmutation" in terms of the "transmutation" of the flesh and blood of Christ into us by means of receiving the bread and wine.

Whatever change occurs, it is not to be located in the physical bread or wine, but the entire movement of the liturgy, the thanksgiving and blessing, and the reception of the bread and wine as the body and blood and Christ.