The Holtonian

I am an insurance agent with THE top-rated insurance company in the land. If whole life is such a rip off, I guess we should notify all the millions and millions of families dating back to Roman Times to send their money they got from those millions and millions of death claims because their "dumb" loved ones got ripped off. Any agent who sells whole life as "a retirement plan" doesn't know what he's doing. It is simply the best way to pay for a policy. Now, realistically, if we are honest with ourselves, will we REALLY invest the difference. Ok, invest it in what? I have called the bluff on that stupid cop-out line many times, and the consumer never ever does it. So, after that 20 years and everything didn't go as planned, what will you do with that term policy? Get more? Oh sorry, I forgot about the diabetes and the heart attack you had 2 years ago...you're no longer insurable and you will die leaving your widow or widower broke. Congratualtions, you listened to an idiot like Dave Ramsey who thinks he knows more than millions of people. What people??? We should also call the likes of Michael Jordan, Bill Clinton, Dick Cheney, Oprah Winfrey, Brett Favre and the familes of 11 other US Presidents and tell these poor people they are getting ripped off because because "financial adviser" Dave Ramsey said so. Financial Adviser?? That's a legal term. Does he have a license? Oh, and whole life is the original form of life insurance dating back to Roman times. Dave Ramsey has been around about 15 years. His ideas haven't had time to be proven! Oh, but they will! Just keep an eye on the news over the next 10 years. Sorry Ramsey fans, YOU are getting duped. The tragedy is, you all mean well but your familes will ultimately suffer.

The celebrities I mentioned in the earlier post? They are all owners of whole life insurance. And, does anyone ever ask WHY Dave Ramsey recommends the Zander group?

Kevin several things:

... taking things a little personally?

Also Rome fell... perhaps due to whole life insurance... that's my new theory, Rome fell due to whole life insurance... all the poor people became bankrupt due to whole policies they couldn't afford, so they revolted and joined the Germanic warlords in over throwing ceasar.

Also Ramsey stumping for the Zander group is a little unusual, I still get my term from one of "THE top-rated insurance companies"

All I know is term policy will cover my wife when I die way more than a whole policy ever could. I could never afford a million dollar let alone 250K policy for my wife. Our 100K policy wouldn't even pay off the mortgage if I died, thus the reason for most poor stiffs like myself, term is a way more intelligent solution.

I was on a business trip yesterday and realized if my car crashed and I died, my wife and daughter would be screwed financially under our old policy.

But If you can afford a whole policy like Michael Jordan, than hey be my guest, gotta put that money some where.

Mean while I'll save a 100 bucks a month, put it towards my mortage (or save it) and be better off in the end.

Its true Term is not an investment, but it is what your company claims to be selling.. insurance. Insurance is there in case of an emergency, in case I die. Much like car insurance is there in case i get in an accident. Would you want a whole policy on your car? Would you like to pay a 100 dollars more a month for a auto policy that in 10 years you can cash in? Oh and by the way this whole auto policy isn't as rich (Deep) as a "term" auto policy and has a 10,000 dollar deductible. But in 10 years you can cash it out... granted you could possibly be better off putting that money towards your mortgage, paying off a credit card, paying off some student loans, or even putting it in a college fund for your child...

I realize this your lively hood but realize that its not the best situation for every person, and for a good number of people it makes no financial sense to have a whole policy.

SO, I know a little about finance.

I will weight in on this just because, we all need some education.(myself included) So, to start off with, you have Term and you are Investing - say the 100 dollars, in what? And Why? I'm not an insurance agent, but I am an educator, and I battle with whole life sales men everyday - it is extremely inflexible and expensive. But there is Permanent life and it is better than term (and for you whole life people – doesn’t pay the ‘agent’ as well, also do stay away from anything with variable in it on your life insurance) for the following reasons, in question form:

1) When do you plan on dying? How do you plan on dying? After all, don't you think the best policy, whatever it may be, at the minimum pay out when you die?
2) Lets say you have to go into LTC – will your term pay for it?
3) Say you don't pass after your term lapses, and you go into LTC, how will you pay for it? I believe a term policy for someone over age 75 right now works out to be 4500 a month(250k db). What investment do you have that will pay guarantee to pay 540000 a year? I want to know, I want it.
4) Are you willing to liquidate your estate to the 2000 max to qualify for Medicare? Are you excited about living in a Medicare facility the last days of your life?
5) Speaking of the last days, Estate planning, since you have a family, is your 'great policy' set up to cover that transfer of wealth? Or do you plan on building a huge nest egg to cover your estate transfer? I like taxes too!
6) If you plan on building and don't want to give your estate to your family - I presume you prefer to give it to the US government?
7) So what's your credit rating? and what is your loan rate on your home? You know you get a little tax credit on that, right?
8) Finally, Dave seems like a sincere guy - but he's in it for the cash. He does not have a license, because you can't 'double dip,' one of those SEC rules...darn those guys that make sure we don't have 'door to door' stock salesmen anymore! If you could market a system after going into bankrupty’s 3 times(?) wouldn’t you do it…I’m going to say this too and I don’t like it … and hide behind ‘dogma’ of the church?
9) PS if you want to learn about living benefits let me know.

Personally, if I was Dave, and advocated a product...I would probably get something in return. That’s called reciprocity, and if you're not licensed completely legal.(I think -- totally not ethical but...who knows?)

Point being, I believe that for debt management Dave may have a great plan, and if he can get people on great plans to get out of debt, Great!! But, he does not have the only plan. We are all individuals and we have different needs, try to cookie cut us all out and the important things will fall through the cracks. You are mistaken on Term - the point I believe, 'wholeton' is trying to make is the wealthy want to protect what they have, and they try to play it smart. Don't criticize them because they are wealthy, learn from what they do and emulate what they do well! I’m not saying love money, by the way, but it is a tool, and a valuable one.

Insurance Business is a big scam ever and many people are taken for a ride by this greedy system

Now you see the light...I told you this is why I switched away from the guy at Northwestern. Better late than never, I guess.

Oh, and one comment about term insurance -- the point is to save enough money to be self-insured at the end of the term. Maybe most don't invest the difference the way they're supposed to, but that is the proper way to do it. I invest the difference, and while whole life does make some money, it does not make nearly as much as investing the difference in the market would. You can take that to the bank. Putting money into a whole life insurance policy is simply poor stewardship of the resources God has given us.

I'm there with you Rob. Dave Ramsey. I'm starting to invest right now, probably put some in retirement and some in savings. I'm big on svaings accts.

So, what if you could forward your death benefit? (say for cancer, illness, LTC) Also, what if you could pay into a permanent policy and at say 50 quit paying and be covered for life? What if when you retire your nest egg is depleted due to poor investment choices or general market decline? How do you get tax free income before 59 1/2? (if you choose to retire early) I'm interested in hearing more about savings accounts! RobU, and holton I'm interested in hearing your great financial strategies!!! I know how Dave R. really makes money -- let me know when you're ready for the answer!

Interested, I'm not sure what your problem is, but I suggest you see a doctor and get rid of it. Seriously what the heck are you talking about, stop speaking in tongues or code and just speak in english.

All i know, which is very little, is I have two possibly three examples of people related to me that have done very well with their money.

The common thread between all three was savings and living modestly so that later in life they would be ok. This is pretty much what Dave Ramsey espouses, "Live your wage" as he often says.

Interested, look, it's very simple. In the last 75 years, the stock market has an average return of 12%. Whole life policies get maybe 6-8%, and there are far fewer choices for where to put the money. The way to invest properly is to do your homework and seek out funds that have a long track record. I can't imagine what you have against a godly man who has helped many thousands change their lives by getting themselves out of debt and building up wealth, but it sounds like jealousy to me.

Wow, one recommendation for a doctor and a lesson in investing. You also assume that I know nothing about investing and insurance. So, to clear the air, I understand where you are coming from and I do not want to stop what you are doing. I'm just asking that you look at all the options.

My simple riddles are to get you to ask yourself the question, 'does Dave know it all?' If all you did was talk to an insurance salesman than you only received a partial picture of what a financial professional does. I know Dave has his purple cow, if you believe in what he does, GREAT.

My criticism of Dave Ramsey stems from his selling of leads lists, and books he and Suzy Orman should write together. Also, of his lack of the full depth of insurance, I see the scam side of it, but I also see the good side of it. If you can truely term and invest the rest, great!

What happens if you are diagnosed with terminal cancer 5 year into your savings plan. You will need that savings - right? You will need to get whatever you can, five years isn't going to cover it, and neither is that term insurance. Finally, what if you are diagnosed at year 21 of plan and had a 20 year term? What if you don't die, and you just depleted everything.

Sure, you're 12% is great in fact I can probably help you find better funds, but the fact is, it's not complete. There is that better? I don't need a doctor...I consider myself a doctor when it comes to finances, and yes I work with families that struggle every week. I just wanted to introduce you to different ideas. Good Luck!

The cash value that builds up also has tax advantages. You can take up to 92% of it TAX FREE. So compare that to your taxed mutual fund gains.

Mutual funds can also go up and down. Cash value locks in annually.

You can get to the cash value anytime you want...retirement accounts make you wait until 59 1/2 yrs of age or pay penalties.

Bottom line is that there is a reason for both. Most of my clients have a blend of term and permanent life insurance.

The term fits the budget and the permanent piece will be carried for the lifetime.

Over time the term is converted to permanent (maybe not all but a desired amount) without question of insurability. You could be diagnosed with Cancer and still be able to convert!

The NW guy that was talked about at the beginning did not do a good job in my opinion. It seems that he did make the "sell" for permanent life insurance when he should have gotten the complete facts and made sure the clients needs were met. Then by looking at the budget get as much permanent as the client could get along with a large portion of term that TOGETHER would take care of the client and his family.

Remember this:

Nothing is either good or bad, until compared to its alternative.

I wonder why Dave Ramsey is against permanent life insurance? Maybe it is so that he can promote and collect advertising revenue from Zander.

I'm still a firm believer in most of dave ramsey's thoughts on money. I think moving to term insurance was one of the best moves I've ever made. Now if I die my wife will be left with a million dollar policy instead of a 100K policy. And I was paying a 160 bucks for a 100K policy, now I pay 70 for a million dollar 20 year policy. That extra 90 bucks has gone strait into savings and I'm seeing the benefits of my money right away. If I need to go out and use my money in an emergency its not tied up in a life insurance policy.

And I have always found the zander thing odd, but hey he's got a job and agenda just like you and I do. I personally stayed with my whole insurance provider as I felt it a good company with good rates.

The one thing that has not stuck well or I didn't like about Ramsey is I looked into his ELPs, endorsed local providers, essentially people who pay to be endoresed by him. Whether its insurance, real estate, money management, etc. All the people I've found off his website have been less than impressive from an educational standpoint as well as from a portfolio and experience standpoint. If I have someone managing my money I want them to have an MBA and a better degree than a community college down the street. Other than that the theory and ideas DR has I'm all about.

I am debt free with the exception of our house and we are aggressively paying that off every second we can.

When people, financial advisors, tell you buy term and invest the difference. Where do you put the difference? I think people who buy a life policy does not have a great agent that will do something best for them. I will endorse my financial advisor, Dan Ang, an agent for New York Life. I was able to realize that life insurance can be used for income-tax free retirement. My company provides me a retirement plan in which they contribute 15% of my salary 100%. I don’t have to contribute. I do have vesting years, but who cares, I’m gonna be retiring with them. My agent suggested to me why don’t I do the same for myself just in case. He designed a plan in which I put away 15% of salary for 10 years, and I can choose to put away more if I want to. So I figure, I put away 150,000, it’s similar to buying a motorhome or a Porshe 911 Turbo or any other exotic car. It’s kind of like buying another home without having to deal with the real estate market. I don’t care too much about the death benefit, but if you ask, it’s a million dollar coverage. By the time I’m 67, the cash value from my policy will supplement my retirement with 67,000 income tax free monies, the company retirement will be about 900,000 and I can withdraw from that about 30,000 taxable money, so I’m living on 97,000. I’m only gonna be taxed on 30,000. I’ve also started my LTC insurance just in case. How’s that for planning? If interested in this, please feel free to contact me dean_manning@yahoo.com. I’m not a financial wizard, but I’ve been educated by my agent.