In my continuing search to define and understand some theological language, we talked about the meaning of the word "apologetics". The response was really great! Since I don't really have a certain direction to follow with this, I am just bringing things up as they come to me. The following verses have me thinking about God's "sovereignty", so I thought that would be a good topic to tackle next. It's a bit weightier than defining apologetics, and it may be absurd to try to discuss this in one post, but bear with me.
"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." - Romans 8:28
"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen." - Romans 11:33-36
"But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." Psalms 115:3
"The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He." - Deuteronomy 32:4
"O Lord, Thou art my God; I will exalt Thee, I will give thanks to Thy name; For Thou hast worked wonders, Plans formed long ago, with perfect faithfulness." - Isaiah 25:1
I have heard God's sovereignty defined as God's will. I know I've used the phrase "God's will for my life" on several occasions, and I realize it can have more than one meaning. Is one meaning more correct than another? Do they work together to define "God's will"? I can think of two distinct ways of explaining God's will.
The first school of thought is, God has a plan for me and desires me to follow it, i.e. obeying His commandments. It is a roadmap He wants me to follow, but one that He knows I will veer from. He continues to do good things, but they are worked despite my own attempts to screw it up. He is making the most of my mistakes, working good despite the times I exert my will over His. He is more reactive in this view, responding to the shortcomings and sins of His willful children.
In the second view, God's will means that everything that happens is His will, despite how we view it, or how we feel about controlling our own destinies. That God's will is happening, and has been happening because He is omnipotent and sovereign, and His will is the fabric of our existence. Even when the perception is that an event is negative, it is in truth, God's plan. A question that accompanies this idea alot is : But how could a caring God will for bad things to happen? For example: A drunk has a car wreck and kills someone. He's repentant and comes to the Lord because of this tragedy. By the first definition of "will of God", he has sinned and God then uses a bad situation to bring him to Christ. By the second, God's plan included this man's sin, included the negative event of a wreck and subsequent death, so that the man would ultimately be brought to God. Does God cause things to happen (which we would characterize as "bad") to fulfill his Will? In Romans 8:28, the word "cause" is used. That's defined today as "something that brings about an effect or a result". Is it applied in the fullest sense of the word?
I am searching for the view with the most accurate reflection of the Sovereignty of God, as discussed in scripture. I'm trying to avoid the discussion of predestination versus free will, though I realize that this topic can quickly lead in that direction. Is it possible to discuss God's sovereignty without bringing those topics into it? I don't know. The more I think about it, the more it seems unlikely to keep them separate. I don't want this to turn into a Reformed versus non-Reformed, verse-swapping frenzy. What I really want to do is look solely at the Bible and determine if God's will applies in a general sense (where every occurance in life is God's will according to His Sovereignty) or in a specific sense (where God has mapped certain paths for us that we stray from.) I will admit, that I am coming more from the standpoint that everything is God's will, and that even our own will is somehow woven into the greater theme of God's will. But I need to know why I believe that, other than saying, oh that's what we Presbyterians believe. I don't even know if all Reformed people will agree with me, so I don't want to make a blanket statement like that.
Please feel free to post your thoughts on the matter! I hope I wasn't too "murky" on this subject- it's difficult to be clear when I'm not sure what I'm asking!
Well, I'm definitaly not the person to ask theological questions. I think I understand everything that I believe well enough- but being able to explain it logically, where someone else can understand it, is very hard for me. I think it is possible to discuss God's soverneignty without discussing predestination- but a little difficult. Since I don't think I have anything particularly helpful for you, I'll just tell you (and all who read this) what I contiously think. God is in control of all things and has planned all things. All things go according to his perfect plan.
Just a few days ago I was in a chapel service and a lady stood up and requested prayer for a young friend of hers. His name is John Mitchell- he is in his mid-late twenties and has a baby and his wife just died in a car accident. She just went to the grocery store and got killed on the way. I thought- that could be me (except I don't have a baby) - or Courtney. But, I was comforted by the thought that God is in control. That happened because it was supposed to happen. It is sad and it is sobering- but only because it reminds us of our mortality and our utter dependence on God. This is why I can get on an airplane, get in a car every day, go on walks. Yeah, something could happen- but I am one of God's children and whatever happens to me is for the good of the Kingdom. I don't think I would be able to cope with a lot of the things that happen in this life without that understanding of his sovereignty. He is a good, gracious and loving God and He will do what is best for me and His Kingdom.
For not having much to say, I sure had a lot to say. :) Sorry!
I'm not sure why people believe everything happens for a reason or according to God's will. Are there some verses that imply that, or even better, verses that say, All things happen according to God's plan. I don't believe there are. God certainly is in control, but he gave man free will and we must choose everyday between good and evil. Most people choose evil (Matt 7), this is not God's will, is it?
Posted by: cmwillis at September 7, 2003 05:48 PMI would first refer you to the verses Shannon posted- those are really good and give Old and New Testament - including the Psalms. Then, I would look at these passages: "It is God who works in you, both to will and to do, for His good pleasure." Phillipians 2:13; Romans 9:14-24 is really good for this topic, but a little long to put the whole thing in. And also, "In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory." Ephesians 1: 11-12
These are a few I found pretty quickly and have been very helpful to me in the past. I know Shannon didn't want to discuss predestination at this time- so I'm sorry I used a verse with that word in it.
Posted by: Lisa at September 7, 2003 11:24 PMGod's sovereignty is His majesty - His gloriousness as King of the universe. His right as Creator to be exalted by the creature and creation that he made. His power over everything that is made.
When I write those words - I am overcome with awe that such an awesome, glorious, holy triune God broke into history to die for me. But even more than that - he wants to be with me - a part of His glorious bride - forever.
hmmm - I am overcome
Posted by: methodius at September 8, 2003 01:04 AMPlease feel free to follow the conversation through it's natural course, Lisa. You don't have to edit yourself over the predestination/free will issue. Go for it, if you're up to it!
Posted by: Shannon at September 8, 2003 01:14 AMI suppose free will could be explained by saying that God somehow suspends his control over us and leaves us to our own devices. This inevitably leads to sin and requires direct interferrance by God to alter. I am more interested in how this happens on a metaphysical level. It would seem that the entirity of creation is held together by Gods direct will. So how could he suspend that will without things falling completely apart? Since everything, including our actions, falls into the realm of Gods creation, how could an action exist without God 'creating' it? That doesn't help much, but on that note, here is a verse that will always blow my mind:
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
Posted by: Patrick at September 8, 2003 11:01 AMHas it ever occured to you who are "Reformed" (I'm still waiting for a proper definition of that and a proper explanation of why I don't use that nom de guerre as a Southern Baptist.) that those who developed ideas opposite the concepts of free will were afraid? Afraid of what? I am glad you asked (aksed, if you speak Ebonics).
As I read my Bible, it is pretty clear to me that we, as humans, have to choose Salvation. In fact, the Bible says that Salvation is a gift: "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23) In order for something to be a gift, there has to be a giver; and there has to be a receiver. Right? So, God has a gift He wants to give us--eternal life. But--and this is key--there is something that we have to do, an action we have to take: we have to receive.
So, my Bible also tells me that once we receive the gift of Salvation, we have a new life to live in Christ Jesus. We are new creations through the blood of Christ, but we still wear our robes of flesh. There is a conflict in us, then, because our flesh is pulled toward the world while our changed spirits are pulled toward Christ. Paul explained it best in Romans 7:15-20. Since we are being in pulled in two directions, we are, then, presented with choices as we can only travel in one direction. We must choose between the flesh and the spirit, and that's a daily process (Luke 9:23).
Now, what about this fear that I mentioned earlier? What in the world could I have meant by that? It's the fear of responsibility. Think about it, if you will. The Bible tells us that we have a choice to make concerning Christ: accept Him or reject Him. The Bible also tells us that we have a daily choice to make concerning our Christian lives: walk in Christ or walk in the world. (Does anyone dispute the fact that there is such a thing as a worldly Christian?) With all these choices, what do we do? What if we choose incorrectly? What if we make a mistake? We have to make these choices every day? All this responsibility is overwhelming. This is too hard! Wouldn't it be easier if the choices were made for us? Ah...there it is!
Life would be much easier if the choices were made for us. If that were the case, we would be absolved from any personal responsibility. We wouldn't have to explain our mistaken choices that way. "It's not our fault." To me, that sounds like a cowardly way to live. (Before any of you Reformed folk go to Baptist-bashing, I am not suggesting that ANYONE is a coward!) Could it possibly be that these pre-destination and God-causes-everything-to-happen doctrines were developed by men who were afraid of the responsibility of having to live with their choices? After all, we are talking about men here. Could it also be that those men also missed the whole concepts of grace and atonement?
When I accepted Christ as my personal Lord and Savior, I was not cleansed of the sins I had committed at that single moment in time. No, Jesus Christ died for all the sins I committed in the past, the sins I commit in the present, and the sins I will commit in the future. He died for every single sin in my life. His blood began to cover me the moment I accepted Him, and it covers me still today. That's atonement. I confess my sins to Him now, and He picks me up when I've stumbled and fallen. He sets me back on the right path and helps me on my way. That's grace. It's not as though, when I accepted Christ, God said, "O. K. Welcome to the family. Now, good luck. Figure it out." He provided me with His Word and the Holy Spirit to help me make the right choices. In His Word, I am reminded that I can ask for wisdom to make the right choices; and He will supply that wisdom abundantly (James 1:5, 6).
Posted by: Joey Wolfe at September 11, 2003 08:10 AMJoey,
Southern Baptists do not fit into the Reformed camp because they do not follow the tenants of the orginal reformers. They follow the teachings of Arminius who taught free-will, and branched off(or broke off) from the Reformed movement to form a movement of their own. We are all in the catholic(universal) church, but we can't be called catholic as it would cause confusion.
As for the doctrines being based on fear, I suppose you could say that the Reformers were very much afraid that when left to their own devices they would choose the path to hell. On the other hand, it could easily be claimed that free-willers are afraid to rely totally on God for their salvation. "If at least some of it's up to me, then I'm still in control", they say.
I think it requires no small amount of boldness to place ALL our faith in the goodness of God, rather than to hold back a little faith in ourselves that WE can make the right choice.
"As for the doctrines being based on fear, I suppose you could say that the Reformers were very much afraid that when left to their own devices they would choose the path to hell." I couldn't agree more with that statement. Because we are born with a sin nature, humans are naturally drawn to sin and the things of the world. I have absolutely no question in my mind that if I did not accept Christ as my Savior I would be right there with every other lost person, living it up according to the world's standards. I know that as well as I know my own name! What prevents me from living like the lost world is my relationship with Christ. I chose Him, and that means denying myself (my sinful desires) and following Him.
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth to life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:13, 14) "...few there be that FIND (emphasis mine) it." These words were spoken by Jesus, and notice how He remarked about those who would find the right (straight and narrow) way. So...this is Jesus (God)...saying something about...finding. That reminds me of something else Jesus said: "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." (Matthew 6:33) Oh, don't forget Jesus' words here: "Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:" (Matthew 7:7) Now, again, Jesus is telling us--plainly, clearly--that we have to be active in our pursuit of Him.
"On the other hand, it could easily be claimed that free-willers are afraid to rely totally on God for their salvation." I found Jesus Christ. I sought Him out, and I found Him. I asked Him to forgive me of my sins and to save me from myself. I DO rely on Jesus Christ to save me. I rely totally on what Christ did on the Cross for me. I am staking my eternity on it!
Posted by: Joey Wolfe at September 14, 2003 01:12 AMEthics is not necessarily the handmaiden of theology.
Posted by: Neufeld Josh at December 11, 2003 04:04 AM