::No, I don't know who Froggie is, or who's he's come a courtin. It's just something Nanny likes to say. Often. To no one in particular.::
The first time I heard of the idea of courting was back in highschool, when a friend of mine shared that she and her parents had come to the decision that courting was the way to go. They had been homeschooling via Bill Gothard, which is an entirely different post, but that is one of the principles of his Ministry, I think. Anyway, from her explanation to me - a guy basically had to approach her father, with the expectation that this courtship would/could/should lead to a marriage. So, it wasn't casual dating. The guy had to know for sure that he intended to marry her, despite not having dated her. I don't know what she could actually do- I don't think she would've been allowed to spend time alone with him, though. I gathered it was more of a family activity thing. Anyway, she never actually courted anyone, though she was interested in a few guys through the years, there was no actual courtship to speak of. So, I never saw the "courtship phenomena" in action. When Josh announced his official courting of Lacy (congrats by the way), it reminded me that I really don't know why it's different than just dating with permission.
I would be interested to know the specifics of courting versus dating- the actual application of it. Has anyone done this? Does it replace the dating phase? Or is it just a pre-official-engagement phase? In what ways is courting better than dating, and how practical and effective is it? Please enlighten me if you thoughts on the subject.
Posted by Shannon at August 25, 2003 05:35 PM | TrackBackThere really isn't that much of a difference. Courtship is just a cool name for many folks to sound more pious and anti-contemporary culture. What it really should be about is recognizing and respecting the father (the parents) in the whole matter, and respecting their rules etc. That's really the central thing, though most people who are into it (we Reformed folks really being legalists, just of a different strand than fundamentalists) go hard-core normative with the whole thing, trying to systametize it into the boy never being allowed to see the girl except in her parents house and all this other stuff.
Posted by: JosiahQ at August 25, 2003 06:11 PMIn one sense courtship is a bunch of rules that are reactionary to the permissiveness of 'dating culture.' That really floats some people's boats, as they love to follow the rules, figuring that will make them better people and soothe their uptight hearts. They say that courtship rules will protect the hearts and emotions of both people. There are some things that I really like about 'courtship' and some things that I really hate. One thing that I abhor is that it treats women as property.
I had the 'opportunity' of observing a really intense courtship. It was essentially dating that was called courtship, and didn't protect anyone's heart. Almost a year after the breakup, she still won't talk to him--that's how deep the hurt goes. Even though the guy observed the technical rules, disaster struck. No, it was more like the inevitable car crash that we all saw coming finally showed up.
A really simple definition of courtship is that it consideration, by a woman and a man, of whether they should be married. I kind of like that--it forces you to put some really good (or really bad) topics on the discussion table.
My pastor says, 'I don't care what you call it--call it dating, call it courtship, call it mudwrestling--as long as you do the right stuff.'
What is the right stuff? You may be able to say better than a single man without much dating experience.
Posted by: Jeep at August 26, 2003 09:10 AMmy gut reaction about the whole courtship phenomenon, esp the Bill Gothard type is to barf. Basically, from what I understand, the couple is never allowed alone, not even conversations on the phone or letters are to go unchaperoned, until they are married. They have appointed "supervisors", wh. in most cases are parents or could be older people in their church, to mentor them and be totally involved to the point of no personal space until they are married. They do not kiss, hold hands, come within 5 inches of eachother until they are married. That sounds awful to me. I can see the benefits of having ones family involved/having permission/blessing. But that can be had while the couple can go to a movie together alone! Is that such a bad thing!?
I think I ultimately jerk at that kind of courting because it stems from a view of one's child that is so uncovenantal. If you have raised your child as a covenant child, claiming for him/her God's promises to his people, there is a sense in that you've given your child to God. So to treat them like they WILL sin if they're left alone is not to treat them as God's child...it's treating them like an unbeliever. Now, I realize as soon as I say that that there are all sorts of qualifications. For instance, I could see more supervision for teenagers (though not necessarily at all times). What I'm balking at is the situations where mature adults/young adults who are church members cramming themselves into a courting relationship. For instance, I know a 35 yr old man who is himself a pastor, and he started dating a girl, and his parents went into histrionics because he refused to "court" her according to the above definition.
Okay...one last thing quick. Sometimes when people use the word "court" they just mean regular old dating when the guy might have a "define-the-relationship-as-something-leading-to-marriage" talk with the girl and maybe even her dad first. So you can see the wide spectrum that can fall under how people use the term. So if you hear someone use the term, it might be worth while to find out what kind of courting they mean.
Posted by: Jeannette at August 26, 2003 11:41 AMI HATE the term Courtship. Every time I hear the word I say, "what the heck is courtship?" It's like that reality show "Meet My Folks" for homeschoolers. I think if you asked around, you would have a hard time finding two fathers who have the same definition of courtship. From my observations, it's all pretty subjective. You've got those who are pretty lax, who, like Jeannette said, raised their kids so they could trust them, and then you have those who don't allow eye contact until marriage and all manner of people in between.
Aaron says he's going to write a book called "I Kissed Courtship Good-bye." I bet it would be a big seller among the under-30 crowd. I'm sure the whole "courtship scene" will look very different (and hopefully better) after it's been through a generation of trial and error.
Here it is, little girl... one of our favorite songs to sing in music class when i was in elementary school in good old hollandale, mississippi... you can read the lyrics... and even listen to the song sung... and what i wonder... is if this john quincy wolf is any relation...
http://www.lyon.edu/wolfcollection/songs/ashfroggy12471.html
FROGGY WENT A-COURTING, No. 1
(THE FROG'S COURTSHIP)
Sung by: Mr. and Mrs. F.E. Ash
Recorded in Evening Shade, AR 6/30/59
Click here to listen to the original recording
Froggy went a-courting and he did ride, uh huh.
Froggy went a-courting and he did ride
With a sword and a pistol by his side, uh huh.
He rode 'til he came to Miss Mouse's den, uh huh.
He rode 'til he came to Miss Mouse's den,
And he said, "Miss Mouse, are you within?" uh huh.
"Oh, yes sir, here I sit and spin." Uh huh.
"Oh, yes sir, here I sit and spin
With my big long tail and my peaked chin," uh huh.
So he took Miss Mousey on his knee, uh huh, uh huh, uh huh.
So he took Miss Mousey on his knee,
And he said, "Miss Mouse, will you marry me," uh huh.
"Oh, not without Uncle Rat's consent," uh huh.
"Oh, not without Uncle Rat's consent,
Oh, I wouldn't marry the President," uh huh.
So Uncle Rat came riding home, uh huh.
So Uncle Rat came riding home,
Saying, "Who's been here since I've been gone?" uh huh.
"Oh, a nice young man, he has been here," uh huh.
"Oh, a nice young man, he has been here,
And he wanted me to be his dear," uh huh.
So Uncle Rat gave his consent, uh huh.
So Uncle Rat gave his consent,
And they were married, and away they went, uh huh.
Where shall the wedding supper be? uh huh.
Oh, where shall the wedding supper be?
Away down yonder in a hollow tree, uh huh.
Oh, what shall the wedding supper be? uh huh.
Oh, what shall the wedding supper be?
A slice of bread and a cup of tea, uh huh.
The first that came was Madame Flea, uh huh.
The first that came was Madame Flea,
And she danced a jig with a bumblebee, uh huh.
The next that came was Major Tick, uh huh.
The next that came was Major Tick,
And the old boy ate so much that it made him sick, uh huh.
They had to send for Old Doc Fly, uh huh.
They had to send for Old Doc Fly,
And the doctor thought Tick's gonna die, uh huh.
The spoon and bowl are on the shelf, uh huh.
The spoon and bowl are on the shelf,
And if you want any more you can sing her yourself, uh huh.
(Dr. Wolf: "Ho, ho! That's good.")
Also found in Randolph, Vol. I, #108, "The Frog's Courtship"; Brown, Vol. III, #120, "The Frog's Courtship"; Belden, p. 494, "The Frog's Courtship."
All Songs Recorded by John Quincy Wolf, Jr.
The John Quincy Wolf Folklore Collection
Lyon College, Batesville, Arkansas
Back to the Song Index
Back to the Wolf Collection Homepage
©Copyright 2002 Lyon College
Excellent comments everybody. Wouldn't Aaron cause a stir with a book like that!!
Posted by: Shannon at August 26, 2003 01:36 PMi'd buy it and ask for an autograph from the author.
Posted by: Uncle Josh at August 26, 2003 07:16 PMI'd expect a free copy seeing as how I'm family... hint, hint.
Posted by: Shannon at August 26, 2003 11:07 PMIf you want the big-time extremely right wing take on courtship, check out John Thompson's series of articles on "God's Design for Scriptural Romance.' These articles have helped me understand some of the people around me, but I don't like what this guy writes. Not at all.
If you make it to the last one, well, he'll explain why he doesn't believe in marriage licenses....
http://www.patriarch.com
Posted by: Jeep at August 28, 2003 08:07 AMIf I had more money, I'd commission Aaron to write the book. He should get serious about doing it. I'm sure Jon Barlow could create publishing house "just special" for it (see the comments to this post of Rick's)
Posted by: jon amos at August 28, 2003 10:08 PMJon, I edited your comment a little to activate the url in the link. You left off the ""s (just to let you know!)
Posted by: Shannon at August 28, 2003 11:10 PMi think the difference from dating that people who use "courtship" are getting at, for the most part, (and this goes back to the small discussion on my blog, shannon) is that to most of america, "dating" means dating more than one person, i.e. casual dating. courtship is more like monogamous dating with the intent of marriage, that includes the family. i think the problem is that there is no one term for what goes on, so everything goes by either "courtship" or "dating" and neither reallya apply. at least that is the way this guy in a "courtship" sees it:)
Posted by: Uncle Josh at August 29, 2003 11:34 AMI've heard the term "court-dating" suggested.
Shannon, thanks for editing my comment. Good to know that MT comment links require double quotes; next time I'll remember to use them (and fyi, the target=_blank tag must be outside the quotes for the tag to work, ie, for the link to open in a new window).
Posted by: jon amos at August 29, 2003 09:41 PMThe function of the artist is to provide what life does not.
Posted by: Good Heidi at February 27, 2004 10:21 AMThe following looks like the origin to our favorite folk song.
Queen Elizabeth and Froggie
RE: "Crawdads, Doodlebugs and Creasy Greens," by Doug Elliott. ISBN # 1-883206-09-X.
Queen Elizabeth was still unmarried in 1574, at age forty. Parlaiment was urgently requesting her to marry. Several people were considered, but nothing came of it. The Queen had a habit of giving nicknames to her favorite people.
• Sir Francis Walsinghan was knwon as "The Moor."
• Lord Burleigh was called "Spirit."
• Chancellor Hatton she called "Mutton."
• Another courtier she called "Eyes," and another "Monkey."
• Her beloved, warty Frenchman she called "Grenouille" or "Froggie." This was Alencon de Medici, one of the sons of Katherine de Medici of France. They courted heavily and things were getting serious - then politicis reared its ugly head. The English people were in an uproar at the thought of a French Catholic ruler in their court. Childbirth at 46 was extremely dangerous in those days, and that danger, combined with the nasty politics, left her discouraged. She jilted Alencon and never married. She became known as the “Virgin Queen” (the state of Virginia was named for her).
On November 21, 1580, a ballad titled "A Most Strange Wedding of the Frogge and the Mouse" was licensed to Edward White at Stationer's Hall, London. It is believed that the uproar surrounding this international royal romance is the origin of "Froggie Went a Courting" that we sing today.